Finding Stillness

Clare Cable: 00:05

Welcome to this QNIS Podcast. The Queen's Nursing Institute Scotland has been supporting community nursing and midwifery since our inception in 1889. While our work may have changed since then, we continue to support and champion community nursing and midwifery. As caring professionals, we often neglect our own self-care, which when unchecked over time, can lead to burnout. These pressures are exacerbated by the current stress of unprecedented demand on our health and care services, and we're seeing the impact on individuals, families, and colleagues. Sometimes we feel powerless to change any of that, but it means that taking time to check in with ourselves is even more important. This series of podcasts seeks to inform and inspire, by introducing you to practices which may be familiar, perhaps with a fresh perspective, by offering firsthand stories of the benefits for others. It's an opportunity to pause and take a few moments to reflect.

Today we'll be talking about mindfulness and the art of being still, coming into greater awareness. And we're joined by Stephanie Wilson, who's a specialist physiotherapist in long-term condition and pain management, working in Glasgow. She is a trained yoga and mindfulness teacher, and teachers mindfulness for chronic pain, fatigue, and those who have cancer, as well as to stress to NHS staff. She's part of the team at Mindfulness Scotland, a charity promoting the benefits of mindfulness to organizations and individuals. Stephanie discovered mindfulness through training for her professional role, however quickly realized that this approach could be of huge personal benefit. Developing mindfulness skills has helped her manage the busyness and stresses of family life, as well as her clinical work. Stephanie, welcome.

Stephanie Wilson: 02:33

Thank you so much for inviting me to come and speak with everybody, Clare. It's lovely to be here and I'm looking forward to our chat.

Clare Cable: 02:40

Great. So Stephanie, I'd like to start at the beginning, by exploring what mindfulness is and what it's not. So can you start by just telling us what is mindfulness?

Stephanie Wilson: 02:54

It's a great question, Clare, and it's a question that's wee bit challenging to answer. I think in my own experience, mindfulness is better felt than telt, but I'll do my best. And I might even begin by just setting out a little scenario, which might be familiar to people who are listening. In fact, I think it's familiar to all of us. So just imagine that you're going to the supermarket, jump in the car, drive to get what you need for your family or whatever you're going to buy. And by the time you've arrived at the supermarket, you might notice that you've got very little memory at all of the journey. And this is possibly a scenario that you recognize. This busyness.

Clare Cable: 03:35

Absolutely. That's very familiar.

Stephanie Wilson: 03:36

Yeah. The sort of busyness of constantly thinking and doing, rather than being with whatever is happening. So that's a great capacity that we all have in our minds of planning and learning from experience. However, sometimes that busyness of the mind distracts us from some of what's actually going on. So it means that we might miss some of the lovely little pleasant moments that just sort of glide off our attention without us noticing. Or also even more subtly, we may miss little changes in how we're feeling in how we're behaving. There's sort of a reactivity that comes with being in that sort of state of mind, which we sometimes called automatic pilot, that can gather a head of steam and take us to a difficult place before we've even realized it's happened.

So for me, and I think what I've noticed is that mindfulness is a way, or learning to become more mindful is a way of helping us to notice what's happening as it's happening. It's a sort of quality of awareness that comes when we stop and pay attention in a particular way, and it takes a bit of practice to do this. But we're paying attention in a particular way which involves being deliberate, so we're doing it by choice. We're paying attention to what's happening in the here and now, and we're doing it with a quality of openness and kindness and non-judgment to whatever might happen to be here. So that's a lot of words, and as I say, it's sort of better felt than telt. But I suppose that speaking from my own experience, at the beginning, I hadn't a clue what paying attention to the present moment would involve, and I tried and I didn't quite know what I was looking for or what I was supposed to be noticing.

And on the first mindfulness course I went on, I discovered that actually there's an anatomy to our inner experience, which I began to be able to tease out through just learning what that anatomy was. So of course, I'm a physio, I'm aware of physical anatomy, but this was a sort of internal anatomy of awareness. And what I found really helpful was that there's different components to that internal anatomy that I've learned so much about over the years that I've been practicing.

Clare Cable: 05:56

That sounds fascinating. So do please help us understand that anatomy, because I know for myself, having been practicing mindfulness for many years, it took me a long time to really understand. And I still feel like a beginner. So understanding that anatomy feels really important. So do please tell us a bit more about what that looks like for you.

Stephanie Wilson: 06:22

Yeah. I think you've used a really interesting phrase there, Clare, that every time you practice, it feels like you're a beginner. Because every time we come to perhaps formally to practice a little bit of mindfulness, we bring that quality of freshness. So every experience is slightly different, and beginner's mind is a key theme within mindfulness, that quality of open curiosity, freshness, and yeah, beginner's mind. What I learned actually was what mindfulness is and what it isn't is involved in this experience of the inner anatomy. So I learned that one component of the inner experience is to become an observer of my thinking mind, the workings of my mind. And I also learned that, that also has a structure.

There's lots of habits of thinking in there, helpful ways of thinking, less helpful ways of thinking. And with practice, I think what I've gained is an ability to sometimes step back and just watch what's going on there in my thinking world as an observer. And that was a new thing for me, because I sort of thought that mindfulness was about becoming a bit empty-headed, that thoughts would settle down and stop, that I'd get a break, if you like, from the relentless activity of thinking. And actually that sort of does happen. We can create a space. But one of the key learnings that I've had from my own mindfulness practice is learning to notice those thinking habits, that either take me to a difficult place in my mind or affect how I feel. So that's been really helpful and interesting for me.

Clare Cable: 08:00

To respond, I can so relate to that. Certainly when I was first practicing mindfulness, I too had this notion that somehow I needed to empty my mind of thoughts, and that in breathing and in counting my breaths, I was somehow a failure because I only got to one and a half breaths before thoughts came flooding into my head. So I kind of came reinforcing again, this sort of negative thinking pattern. Was this narrative that I was really bad at mindfulness, because my head was always full of thoughts. But I guess as I have gone on, I've now learned to notice some. And one of the metaphors that I found helpful was just to gently watch those thoughts, like a mouse coming out of a mouse hole. They suddenly appear. And just to notice them and then the let the mouse disappear. But just the very noticing how often a mouse pops out of the mouse hole and sometimes naming those thoughts, I spend a lot of my time planning.

So when I notice, I just see the mouse come out of the mouse hole and just name it, planning, planning. And then let it go, or often getting obsessive anxious about things that may or may not happen. Just to see that thought pop out the mouse hole go worrying, worrying, and let that go. But as you say, it's taken quite a bit of time to understand what a awareness is and bringing awareness to what may be going on inside of me, as opposed to I had got into my head this slightly sort of fanatical focus on breath, and that somehow I needed to transcend all thoughts and just become entirely focused on breathing as an end in itself, rather than using it as an anchor.

Stephanie Wilson: 10:07

Yes. There's lots in what you've just said there that's, yeah, really helpful. I do think it's a common experience that people feel when they first try a little bit of mindfulness, this relentless thinking is a mistake that they're making. But actually our brain is oozing out thoughts all the time. You can't switch it off. That's what it's there for. So often very helpful, it's really helpful to be able to plan, which is also my tendency. When I stop, I notice how many to-do lists are in there. But I suppose what I've noticed is noticing that relentless planning has an effect on how I feel emotionally, so that's the second bit of the internal anatomy, and it also has an effect on how I feel in my body. So with practice, I've learned to see the benefits. Obviously, I've been able to plan and think ahead, but also how it can become unhelpful when it affects our mood and it affects the tension that we hold in our body.

So I've learned that the inner anatomy involves observing, thinking, and not pushing thoughts away, but noticing them, observing how I feel and not trying to fix that, but acknowledging where those feelings might come from and maybe how to bring some kindness and gentleness to that experience. And then also noticing the impact on my body. So actually that's another thought. Often people think mindfulness is a form of relaxation, and often relaxation does come through practicing mindfulness, but it's not the key purpose, which is really, I suppose, about stopping, noticing, and gaining insight in a way that helps us more skillfully take care of ourselves. So I would say that the inner anatomy involves four areas, awareness of our thinking, awareness of our feeling, noticing our body really quite specifically, and then noticing any reactivity and behavior. So that quadrangle of insight helps us to take perhaps better care of ourself and more skillful action in a variety of different circumstances.

What you said about the breath is really interesting. I think people do feel there's a lot of focus on breathing. But the breath is really just a tool to help us come back to the moment when our mind has wandered off. I suppose as a physio, actually, I think of, I'm into, what would we call it? Exercise, I suppose. And I feel that mindfulness is a sort of brain exercise, brain training. We're using this insight and this way of paying attention to build up that capacity to notice, I would say. It's like a muscle of attention. Yeah.

Clare Cable: 12:43

Yes. That map is just so helpful. The thinking and feeling and sensing what's going on in our bodies. And what came to mind just this morning when I woke up, I realized that as I was waking, I was obsessively composing a letter in my head. And I got up and sat down to my morning mindfulness practice, and it was still there in my head. And just to notice that and then to check in with where I felt that. And I could feel it absolutely as a kind of knot in my stomach and as a tension in my neck. And to be able to recognize that sense where it was, and then to just let that be and come back to my breath and focus and just to not intentionally change that, but to notice it and maybe let it dissipate, just enabled me to bring a sort of perspective.

And just to recognize that the thinking had become obsessive, and I just needed to name it to feel it. I was quite anxious about it, anxious about getting it right, anxious about what the consequences were of getting it wrong, and just to let that go. Having recognized the impact of the thought on my emotions and my body, and then just to acknowledge it and let it be and let go of it. So it was just, that's such a helpful map to think about. Thoughts, emotions, body-

Stephanie Wilson: 14:35

And reactions, yeah.

Clare Cable: 14:36

And reactions, yes.

Stephanie Wilson: 14:38

Yeah. I find it personally very helpful to sort of tease out that inner experience. It just felt like a big blob. I didn't really know how to observe what was here, so that that's been certainly personally very helpful. I think it's also important to know that mindfulness practice isn't essentially designed for us to fix ourselves. We're not trying to make ourselves anything different. There's a quality of self-acceptance and kindness that actually bizarrely does allow us to make subtle changes that are really, really helpful, but not in a forceful, "I must fix myself," type of way, which I've just found personally so helpful.

Clare Cable: 15:17

Bringing that lens of kindness and acceptance, and recognizing that so much of what we're experiencing is within our control. But to bring that sort of compassionate lens to our own responses, as you say, our reactions.

Stephanie Wilson: 15:34

Absolutely. One of the key definitions of what mindfulness is, because I suppose that was a question.

Clare Cable: 15:39

Yes.

Stephanie Wilson:: 15:40

Has got three components to it. And it's we're doing it deliberately by choice. So we're choosing to step out of automatic pilot, we're paying attention to the present moment with that anatomy to help to guide our observation, but we're doing it with a set of attitudes that actually I feel are almost the most important bit. So we're training ourself through that brain training to pay attention, but it's the particular way in which we're doing it that just shifts so much of our attitude towards ourself. And actually over time, that begins to spill out towards our attitudes to other people as well. So I think personally for me, this skill of learning about mindfulness has been, I would say, quite transformational and just incredibly helpful. It's not a quick fix though, not a quick fix, and it's not about fixing. It's not easy. It takes a bit of discipline, which is not a very popular word. It takes a level of commitment to actually really reap the benefits of these really quite powerful practices.

Clare Cable: 16:45

So Stephanie, could you tell us a bit more about attitude to self? And then in your experience, how that has affected your attitude to others?

Stephanie Wilson: 16:57

Yeah. I think there's something about the quality of non-judging, and starting with myself. I tend to be quite an anxious person, I tend to be quite bossy at times because I like to control things. I like to be on top of it. That brings a certain type of stress with it, constantly trying to be on top of everything. And it's a wee bit like you've described your morning of getting up with the letter in your mind. I'm a person who plans my whole day in the shower. And you get into the shower and there's just a relentless list of stuff, and I beat myself up for not getting things right. All those qualities or all those attitudes that I would say predispose a person to complete utter burnout.

Clare Cable: 17:42

Yes, absolutely. That kind of inner voice of judgment.

Stephanie Wilson: 17:47

Yep, inner voice of judgment. Yep. And actually just sitting and noticing all the complexity of the inner processes that lead to that type of mental activity. And bringing a quality of letting myself off the hook, a bit of kindness, bit of that, again, quality of non-judgment series, a sort of attitude of compassion. And bringing that to myself has actually just naturally spilled out into my understanding of other people. I think I probably listen better. I probably am more open to other people's experience without judging it in a reactive way. Because of course, that's the fourth area is that sort of reactive pattern that comes with overthinking everything. So it's been a slow process, I would say, Clare, but it's been a very enriching journey, very enjoyable. Not perfect by any manner of means, but learning lots of wee helpful things along the way.

Clare Cable: 18:46

Fantastic. That's so helpful. And I think that whole piece about it's when we are attuned to ourselves that we can really listen deeply to others. And I think there's something extraordinary about that. I think as caring professionals, we feel that listening to the other is our focus. And yet I would completely echo your experience, in that when we are more attuned to ourselves, to our thinking, our feeling, our body, our reactions, then we are truly able to listen to others in a way that is present, much more present than previously. And certainly, I think my own beginner's journey with mindfulness, I think would reinforce that, that when I am present to myself, then I am able to listen in a different way to others and to notice things in a different way because my awareness is heightened.

Stephanie Wilson: 20:23

And I suppose heightened also with that quality of kindness that can expand out to include the other person.

Clare Cable: 20:29

Yes. Absolutely.

Stephanie Wilson: 20:31

Yeah. I've got a visual image of this lovely Ready Brek glow. Do you remember the Ready Brek glow?

Clare Cable: 20:39

I do.

Stephanie Wilson: 20:40

Around you and the person that you communicated with. Often the analogy is used, you might have heard this before, the analogy of what happens when you're on a flight. And there's the instruction about using your life jacket. So the analogy is, or what you're guided to do on a flight is to put your own life jacket on first before you assist the person beside you. And I think that's quite a helpful analogy for that quality of paying attention to yourself and your own needs and your own present moment experience, before, as a priority, if you're also wanting to care for others.

Clare Cable: 21:20

Absolutely. That's so important. And I love the idea of the Ready Brek glow . For those who perhaps aren't familiar with a certain other breakfast cereals are available. It was sort of person with almost like a kind of highlighter pen around their edge, sort of a gentle glow on their periphery. It is that sort of sense of-

Stephanie Wilson: 21:47

I'm showing my age now. It's a very old advert of a little boy going to school with his Ready Brek glow

Clare Cable: 21:54

Indeed. So we've covered a good amount about what mindfulness is. I wonder if it's just worth picking up for a moment what mindfulness isn't. Are there kind of common misconceptions that it would be helpful to unpack?

Stephanie Wilson:: 22:14

Yeah, I suppose so. Well, mindfulness classes for example, is often a picture of somebody sitting on a beach with a funny hand position and the waves rolling in. It's sort of that quality of transcendent relaxation, which I suppose I've tried to sort of mention already. But yeah, and that's lovely. To become more relaxed, to become more peaceful is definitely a byproduct of what we learn when we engage on a mindfulness course. Definitely… m

Clare Cable: 22:44

But you don't have to wear Lycra and sit on a Californian beach.

Stephanie Wilson: 22:47

You don't have to sit in a particular way, you don't have to do anything in particular except pay attention to what your present experience is. I think that can be a common misconception. The idea of having a clear mind where no thinking happens and you're just beautifully tranquil is not what mindfulness training is about. I would say it's an insight practice gaining self-awareness and insight. It's also not about us fixing yourself, not that relentless need for self-improvement that we all can experience. In fact, I've got a really nice quote that might be helpful to read out. So this is a quote that I heard a few years ago from a mindfulness teacher who said, "Don't meditate," which is another word for mindfulness. "Don't meditate to save yourself, to improve yourself, to redeem yourself. Rather do it as an act of care, of deep warm friendship to yourself. In this way, there is no longer a need for the subtle aggression of self-improvement.

Clare Cable: 23:50

Well, that's really interesting. The subtle aggression of self improvement.

Stephanie Wilson: 23:54

Self improvement. Yeah.

Clare Cable: 23:56

And I suppose it's back to that voice of judgment, isn't it? That somehow that there's this, that we should be doing something, rather than the coming from a place of care and compassion, that somehow it's something we beat ourselves up a bit about. Another list of things that we should be doing each day, eating well, doing 10,000 steps. And add to that mindfulness and great dental hygiene or whatever else. It becomes yet another thing on the list of shoulds.

Stephanie Wilson: 24:32

Yes, yes. And I think as health professionals, we all want to do a good job. We tend to be hardworking, tend to be quite goal orientated. And as you say, mindfulness practice can be another thing that we feel we should do. And that's where the attitudinal qualities of what we bring to mindfulness practice is so important, that gentle connection with self-care. Actually as a way of beginning to care for others in a different way also, but primarily self-care. That's what I find so helpful to myself, not making my mindfulness practice another thing I feel I have to do before I can collapse into bed at night.

Clare Cable: 25:15

Indeed. And just on that, Stephanie, are you a get up in the morning mindfulness practice person? Or is that something that you generally do before bed? Or both or during the day?

Stephanie Wilson: 25:28

Yes. So in mindfulness, when I was training in mindfulness, there's two classes of practice, so there's formal practice. Or you could sometimes just call that eyes closed practice, where we sit deliberately by choice, closing our eyes and turning our attention inwards. And I do tend to do that in the morning. I used to get up and sit in a cushion and like you say, sit up properly and do it right. And now sometimes I just make sure that I'm well propped up in bed, have a cup of tea, and just spend a little bit of time turning my attention inwards, noticing the planning. Sometimes if I don't have time for that, I actually do a little bit of mindfulness practice in the shower, feeling the water, feeling my feet on the ground, which would be more what we'd call an informal or eyes open type of practice.

So formal practice I do in the morning, sometimes in the evening, but the informal practice of just stopping at a variety of points in the day and making sure I'm actually here, not lost in some big story in my head, or not in a future that hasn't happened yet, or in the past that I can't do anything about. For nurses, for example, when you wash your hands, each time you wash your hands, you just take a moment to feel your feet on the floor, tune into your posture in your body and feel the soap in your hands type of thing.

Clare Cable: 26:50

Yes, that's so helpful. Those just moments of connection to reconnect and become present. And just one more thing that I wanted to pick up on, Stephanie. You said mindfulness is a form of meditation. I think that's something that people often have some degree of confusion about. Is mindfulness meditation, is it different? Are they one and the same?

Stephanie Wilson: 27:16

So I would say mindfulness is a form of meditation. There's lots of other, like you say, there's lots of other breakfast cereals available. There's also lots of different types of meditation practice available. So in my yoga practice, there is a meditation called tracker meditation where you focus intensely on a candle. Or within the Buddhist tradition, there's lots of different types of meditation practice that are quite structured. For me, mindfulness is simply about paying attention in that particular way with those set of kindly attitudes that we bring. That might not be an accurate answer, but that's how I understand it, Clare, that mindfulness is, it is meditation because we are reflecting and turning our attention inwards often, to see what's here with that quality of kindness.

But it's not the only type of meditation. I would say too, that sometimes there's a thought that meditation is very inward looking. But I also think it's possible to bring mindfulness to the environment, how we care for and engage with our environment. So initially when we're learning to become more mindful, it is very much internally focused. But I think as time goes on, it also reaches out to other people, but also to the environment and to the whole outer aspect of our lives too.

Clare Cable: 28:41

And I think there's a growing evidence base around that, Stephanie. I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit, there's a huge body of research, but maybe just some of the headlines of where the research evidence is very strong in terms of the benefits of mindfulness for individuals and for connection with the wider things that you were just discussing.

Stephanie Wilson: 29:09

Yeah. So my biggest understanding is of how mindfulness is evidenced within health, health and social care, I suppose. However, there was a really interesting document produced in 2019. It's called the Mindful Nation, a Mindful Nation document. I don't know if you've heard of it. And it looks at the benefits of mindfulness within a whole range of society. So health and wellbeing, education, the criminal justice system, and also within organizations. So the idea of a mindful workplace. And that document outlines loads of research that show the evidence for mindfulness in all those areas of society. But within healthcare, which is what we're all involved with, lots of evidence for mindfulness in physical health situations. So for basically where stress is a factor in a health condition. So cardiovascular, respiratory conditions, for me also of course, chronic pain. So lots of growing evidence for mindfulness is a beneficial intervention in those types of areas. In fact, included in the NICE guidelines for pain just now.

And then also of course for mental health, lots of evidence for the benefit of mindfulness within management of depression, particularly recurrent and stubborn depression, anxiety, addiction, so lots of evidence there. But for ourselves, just as individuals, lots of interesting developments within the world of neuroscience. And really what I find really interesting is the role of neuroplasticity and how that becomes wired into our mindfulness practice. So there's a very good website, and it's in the list of resources with this podcast. It's encapsulating the work of Professor Richard Davidson, and his website is called Healthy Working Minds. And loads of evidence in there about how mindfulness and practicing consistently can actually begin to change the physical structure of our brain in ways that-

Clare Cable: 31:20

And isn't that extraordinary?

Stephanie Wilson: 31:22

It's amazing that we can choose to do something that actually change the physical structure of this amazing organ of our brain. So lots of stuff in there. But the things that I find most interesting is when we're practicing mindfulness, the brain activity shifts from the right hemisphere to the left. And in a nutshell, the left hemisphere is a center where we feel much more qualities of contentment. And that's measurable and it's observable in MRI scanning. The other interesting thing is that mindfulness... Actually an eight-week program can create measurable differences in the gray matter of specific areas of our brain, even just eight weeks. And those areas of the brain relate to things like focus, concentration, empathy, self-regulation, so managing emotions differently. And also the activity of paying attention engages the prefrontal cortex, which has a quietening effect on the limbic system, which is where our threat center is. So that ability to be more focused and attentive actually quietens down the stress system. And that, again, is observable in MRI scanning. So it's really quite amazing.

Clare Cable:: 32:41

It's just so powerful, isn't it?

M And I think it's so easy to get stuck in that place of the stress system switched on, when we are dealing with sometimes unrelenting, unmet need, and the stresses of the systems that we work within. And so to have that research that shows what we feel, but actually brings the neurological evidence to bear of the extraordinary changes that take place in the brain is just so powerful. And it feels like a long departure from the days of way back when I trained where there was a sort of, you start losing gray cells from early adulthood, and it's all downhill from there. But the whole piece about neuroplasticity, that we continue to be able to shape the way in which our neuro-circuitry is wired, the way in which we respond, and that we can make real changes to that, through as you've said, exercise. We can use regular mindfulness practice to actually change the way in which we respond to things fundamentally, not just in our feelings in the here and now, but it's actually making changes to our neurology, which seems just extraordinary.

Stephanie Wilson: 34:19

Very encouraging, and I suppose an extra incentive to just keep practicing.

Clare Cable: 34:24

Absolutely. So Stephanie, to bring our time to an end, it's just been a joy to speak to you, and I think we could go on and on. But for someone who would like to explore this further, where would you suggest starting?

Stephanie Wilson: 34:41

So there's a whole variety of ways in which to experience mindfulness, as you'll know. And it's become really sort of very popular and common parlance and awareness, and lots of resources out there. But what I would say is that the evidence that I've sort of been sort of talking about a little bit really comes from a structured learning approach to mindfulness. So usually an eight-week program or maybe a six-week program where you can really begin to develop and build up your mindfulness skills. So that would be the gold standard. And I think in the resources to the podcast, there's lots of different ways of doing an eight-week program, online courses. Perhaps locally you might find an in-person course. And there's also courses that you can do online that are completely free and you can do it your own time. So you just work your way through it yourself.

I think one thing to notice, first of all, is just become aware of what's going on in the mindfulness world, the research and the evidence base. And then take a wee moment to notice what your own needs are, what your learning style is, what sort of time you can commit to. But certainly an eight-week course is the gold standard way of developing a mindfulness skill. There's also apps that you can dip in and out of, and little practices that you can dip in and out of, absolutely useful. But as I say, gold standard would be to do a course in whatever way you find you can.

Clare Cable: 36:05

You'll be able to find some of those resources that Stephanie's talked about in our conversation in the show notes. And another good place to start to find resources is the QNIS website, which has a whole range of information to help you on this journey. But before we finish, hear from Queen's Nurse Richard Sanders on his own mindfulness journey and his hopes for introducing mindfulness to others.

Richard Sanders:: 36:34

My name's Richard Sanders. I'm a Queen's nurse working on one of the Northern Isles, North of Mainland Orkney, with a population of approximately 130 people. I became interested in mindfulness in my own personal life, and undertook an eight-week mindfulness based stress reduction course, which was inspirational. I went on then to think that I would like to deliver this to my patients, to offer an alternative to pharmacological interventions for conditions such as stress, anxiety, and chronic pain. I have found mindfulness has changed my life. I use it on a daily basis for my own wellbeing, and now it is within my toolkit to offer to my patients here on the island that I work on. I'm starting a small project on the island with the hope that if this is successful and is well received, that we can use it as a model to roll out across the Isles and perhaps more broadly.

Clare Cable: 37:47

Thank you all for joining us. We hope you found this podcast useful, that you'll join us again. From all of us at QNIS, thank you for being here.